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Author Topic: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons  (Read 3083 times)

Mim

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Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« on: December 15, 2018, 07:53:06 AM »

 This will be an ongoing discussion for a limited time concerning the uniforms worn by SG teams across the board (not including Atlantis at this stage) and the weapons carried by all teams. The thread will remain open until January 7th 2019 by which time with a consensus we hope to have reached a final decision. If no agreement if made by all parties the Staff team will make the final conclusions.

 One of the main arguments we've had over the years is that teams from international units were permitted to wear their own camoflague patterns and this will apply if a team is made up of one nation entirely. But if members from various nations make up a single team, a common uniform drawn from the SG stores will apply.

Categories:

 On Base- casual.

 This uniform will be the non combat fatigues you will wear around base. Commonly on SG1 that was a set of blues for off duty. I think something similar should be retained.

 

 Off world

 Here we get down into the murk where the basic argument begins, so we will try to make a compromise with the end results being final. There will be two versions, desert light and forest. We have seen the version used by the show and I'm not overly opposed to changing them unless you all feel we should.

Off World black

 These will remain for special operations and the essential uniforms for SG1 and SG4.

 

 We shall tackle the weapons along the way towards the end of the time set for this thread.
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2018, 09:03:29 AM »





The way I see it, we either go with the new Multicam or the iconic BDU design for the Forest.


I'm guessing for desert, we're using the standard design.

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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 09:17:20 AM »

So whilst I do see a point of swapping to say Multi Cam for all teams I am not overly fond of it. I dont know why. I just feel that the SGC Sage Green uniforms had a specific look to them. Personally I have no issue with the Fatigue Base uniform. its what gose over it, with things like the Black Hawk Tactical Vest that SG-1 (And I assume any other character that claims to be wearing a Tactical Vest) Wears is no longer made, and even with armour inserts provides no protection to the chest or back.

of course the Base uniform should maybe be updated, not the blue uniform more the one the SF's wear around the base that were out of date even in season 10 and should be wearing the new Airforce uniform instead of woodland. There is also no real point in adopting Multi Cam if we are going to be forced to keep a Woodland and Desert set of uniforms as the whole point of Multi Cam is that it removes the need for both sets.

Basically I think what we have is fine, but maybe with an update to SG-1's woodland gear (Not their sage gear, like their tactical gear they wear in The Fifth Man.) To Multi Cam

I know my opinion counts for very little. I just felt as somebody thats brought this up in the past I would weight in as my points in the past have either gone nowhere. Been Missunderstood or been talking about something specific and being told I am being overly picky. Plus I have been informed time and time again that most people dont give a toss about peoples uniform. And I think the few that do (Such as myself) Run their own SG team and can pick the uniform their teams wear.

As this seams to have come from somebody asking if they could wear estonian camoflage, I guess the question is, dose it matter? None of My OC's are wearing what they are really wearing in character apart from Gary, Hell Charlotte and Harly are in civillian gear. Fred wears American gear from 1993 and Gary is the only one wearing the right camouflage.

Basically use the SGC should drop one colour uniforms as they are a thing of the Special forces in the late 90's and early 2000's but I like them, even if my team dosnt wear them. Plus if we have to keep a desert and green uniform may as well go for USMC MARPAT. But anyway thats another ball game. Also I want to point out SG-1 wore their green uniforms more often than the black ones even in Season 9 and 10, they just wore it more in those seasons than earlier ones.

Okay final vote from my point. Keep it as it is. Bud dump the base SF's woodland gear give them USAF tiger stripe camo and I guess if teams need to go all tactical (Again using the idea from The Fifth Man.) Instead of woodland they go for Multicam. But keep the Sage, uniforms.
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2018, 11:41:40 AM »

My 5c worth.

While having everyone wear the unique uniform of their service and country instills a certain pride, there is good sense in having everyone wear the same working/utility uniform (obviously we’re not touching service uniforms used for formal occasions). It presents a united front to those we meet through the Stargate, and would help to reinforce the idea that we’re all working together.

From a logistical standpoint, everyone having the same uniform it smart when it comes to purchasing, repairs etc. Having the base carry a full sets of spares for the one person from Finland doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Everyone wears what they are assigned. This is why Atlantis and SGU made everyone wear the same uniform.

With regards to the pattern, Multicams seem to be where the world is moving. I would note however that SG teams are not, and never have been, hunter-killer units - they are explorers.

On the flip side, Stargate canon does like to have everyone where their own uniform. The US Marines and US Army personnel assigned to the SGC did, as did the Russian teams. From memory the USMC personnel assigned on SGU also wore unique uniforms.
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Cipherhornet18

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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2018, 12:22:16 PM »

I'm against keeping the old BDUs, Woodland and 3-pattern Desert. Both were out of service long before 2011, and keeping them around is just nostalgia at this point. The same is my opinion getting hung up on out of production vests (you raised this with my cosplay SG Uniform and to be blunt, I thought that was an unreasonable criticism). Pretending like it's still 1999 and very little is understood about the USAF is just absurd, clinging to it is even worse in my opinion.

As for the single color ones (OD, Blue, Black). Black can remain with all teams as an option simply because it's one that is an exception to the rule and is still useful for night operations or even assault operations. Psychologically, using black uniforms can have a minor shock effect on adversaries when conducting assaults, which is why most law enforcement units still use it. In fact, SWAT units around the US favor solid color fatigues of the same three types over camo ones.

As far as OD and Blue go, I'd say those need to get kicked back to casual on-base use, not for field use any longer. This is more of a deniability point, since remember, we're still sharing space with NORAD, and it's getting harder and harder to explain why we have so many foreign personnel coming in and out of Cheyenne Mountain. Which is also a USAF facility so even an influx of people all in MARPAT would raise concerns, moreso when the majority of them are not Marines, which then gets out into social media, the Marine Corps throws a collective fit, and down the rabbit hole we go. Don't believe me? Look up what happened when the Navy revealed the Woodland and Desert patterns of the NWU.

While many countries have adopted Multicam in one way or another, this is usually in lieu of or in addition to their current fatigues. At this point, the UK and a few others have adopted it or a variation as standard issue. Others have, like France or Germany, refused to use it outright. Some countries have only two variations of their fatigues, others are like Russia and have a couple dozen different types.

Looking at the US at this point -
US Army and US Air Force had their respective uniforms, but complaints from soldiers and airmen revealed deficiencies, particularly in the effectiveness of the pattern being almost worthless in any environment they were deployed in. USAF Airman Battle Uniforms also had the problem of being too heavy and uncomfortable to wear in warm environments. By 2010, units operating in Afghanistan were being authorized to wear Multicam or Multicam-derived uniforms in lieu of ACUs or ABUs. Development of the replacement, the Multicam-derived OCP fatigues, started around this time as well. Now it won't be for another couple of years until the Army adopts it completely and the Air Force will likely follow suit soon, if they haven't already.

Meanwhile, the Marine Corps already has had considerable success with their MARPAT fatigues (which in turn are derived from Canada's CADPAT) to such a degree the Navy would copy them to a degree that has caused some issued in the Pentagon. MARPAT comes in Woodland and Desert variations, and Naval Working Uniforms come not only in the "default" blue pattern, but also have Woodland and Desert versions as well. However, Special Operations personnel appear to have the latitude to wear Multicam fatigues if so desired on missions.

Which brings me to the matter of the "civilian" attire, which is something seen on personnel operating in Afghanistan mainly, but also has picked up in the movies and popular media. Yes, SOF personnel have the leeway to do so, but to do so while on an official mission for the SGC would be considered grossly unprofessional. This attire choice is done for strategic and tactical reasons, not for the hell of it. Either they are in such a situation where they had to attire as such for expediency or the local situation called for it in a manner that they could blend in better. This is not something that should be considered normal procedure for an SG Team to do on a regular basis, or at least frowned upon. Being in uniform while operating in an official capacity is a must because there are dozens of laws of warfare that require it, and also there is the fact that an SG Team is acting in an official capacity. Okay, it might look cool to show up in jeans, t-shirt, operator beard and a FDNY ballcap like in Medal of Honor (2010), but I'd argue that's just not the vibe for SG Teams to follow...

Now, there is an alternative; there are commercially available patterns for fatigues. One company, HyperStealth, has at least a couple hundred they're marketing around the world. It might stand out, but it also can't be tied back to anyone going that route, and therefore easier to cover up. So, if we're to standardize, here's what I propose:

--OD and Blue single color fatigues are for On-Base/Casual only, in lieu of the person's military uniform requirements. This is due to the sharp increase of foreign personnel and civilians who work at the base on a regular basis and do not have to wear a buisness suit.

--Black single color fatigues remain an option for missions that would require their use, and are available to all teams as required. They are not authorized for use as On-Base/Casual any longer.

--Multicam, plus appropriate sets for Woodland, Desert, Snow and Urban are all to be made available for SG Teams to use, with the mandate remaining the team commander has final say on the uniform to be chosen, based on mission profile. Wearing civilian attire under tactical gear is no longer to be considered an acceptable practice unless done so for mission considerations. Uniforms are to be correctly marked as normal and as mission situations require, with SG Unit and SGC insignia, and an option is allowed to include a nationality insignia as well, as this was cleared to be done with the Atlantis Expedition.

All in all, this gives us 6 options to work with at any given time.

To kind of get things rolling on what options we have on the commercial market, I'm going to direct you to HyperStealth's SOPAT III line.

http://www.hyperstealth.com/SOPAT-3/index.html

My votes are for the following:
WOODLAND - SOPAT Temperate
DESERT - SOPAT Medium Desert
SNOW - SOPAT Snow
URBAN - SOPAT Mountain
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2018, 06:09:35 AM »

As of October 2018 we are authorized to wear the Multicam uniforms and I think by 2020 they want to have phased out the ABU's. I'm not sure the Army's timetable for phasing out the old uniforms. Logistics is one of the reasons the Air Force is switching over.

The original ABU design was a bit heavy, but they made some changes to lighten even the winter weight uniforms.


I guess it depends on the reason for the uniform. If they're staying on base, say the SGC or Alpha Site, something like OD Green makes sense.
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2018, 10:16:15 PM »

Cipherhornet18 has a good idea i believe, a standard camo pattern for the SG teams with apprioate insignia and national flag on either right or left shoulder. Perhaps combat shirts for combat focused SG-teams. Combat shirts allow the torso to breathe better than a regular field jacket or whatever they are called. Perhaps a vest/plate carrier similar to the one i have in the picture with molle webbing.

As for weapons, in the shows we see the P90, G36K, M4/16 mainly. I am not sure about the MG being used, for sidearms we see the M9/92FS pistol and zats.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 10:34:46 PM by Artemis »
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Mim

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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 08:35:35 AM »

 Are these uniforms available in 2011? That is the biggest question I have.

 So as to not confuse the thread; we'll leave weapons and vests until a later time.
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 08:36:31 AM »

If to mine, then yes. Looks like 2006 was the start of SOPAT.
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 08:41:54 AM »

ABUs were available in 2011, and Multicam was just starting to come into use by the US Forces as the Army uniform was deemed unsuitable.
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Mim

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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 09:28:23 AM »

 Are the SOPAT uniforms issued to any of the US services?

 I'm looking at what was current in our timeline.

 

 

 
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 10:15:05 AM »

No. I was proposing SOPAT as a comercial alternative to picking the metric ton of existing ones as a standard. Otherwise, we go right back to where I started in my post, which is we're going to circle the same logic over and over.

Multicam has been available for a while now. And I am flat out saying no to using ACUs and ABUs in the field, even the Army and Air Force said they were useless patterns, invented because they looked cool.
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Mim

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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2018, 10:48:00 AM »

 This I guess is why it is a highly debatable topic because on the one hand we wish to keep it uniform, pardon the pun and on the other hand we can see a need for change. My point on this aspect (the SOPAT) is that's a private venture and has no bearing on service issues. I was hoping that something could be found from that avenue.
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2018, 11:58:08 AM »

Comercially available is exactly my point. Again, Cheyenne Mountain is a USAF facility. Other branches and a vast influx of forgein personnel, PLUS all the civilians, is a huge information leak waiting to happen. Going to patterns not normally in use streamlines our logistics to the overall 7 types plus it allows for deniability.

Case in point, heres a wiki just to camo patterns in use. Russia alone has a couple dozen patterns in issue. Multicam covers one base, but reverting to out of use woodland and desert ones makes less sense than just letting everyone wear their normal ones.

http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
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Re: Determination of standard SG uniforms and weapons
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2018, 12:00:02 PM »

I've put this topic on my notifications since the thread starter cause this is important stuff, and Im keen to the uniform changes. To make it proper to our stargate roleplay because I've felt the other uniforms were a bit out of date? If were to put on the vote by the end of the year, I guess. I dont know much about service uniforms, but Im watching this topic.  :camS
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