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Author Topic: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread  (Read 2913 times)

Cipherhornet18

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Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« on: April 16, 2019, 01:42:56 PM »

This thread will be reserved for future Q&A regarding weapons & equipment.

As the Armory Mod, I do request that official rulings be left to me but give me 1-3 days, depending when the post is made in relation to my work schedule. Keep it civil and remember, this is a weapons & equipment chat thread.
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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2019, 02:19:59 PM »



Cipher's Gun Chat - The P90

I'm going to try to do an occasional chat about one of the weapons on our list, this is for the benefit of those who may not know what it is and what the big deal is. We'll start off with the obvious one, the FN P90.

What is it? - The FN P90 is officially classified as a Personal Defense Weapon, though calling it a submachine gun is not entirely wrong either. Designed and built by FN Herstal of Belgium to meet a 1980s NATO request for replacing the 9x19mm round with something more effective against body armor, it started design in 1986 and entered production in 1990 (hence the 90 of the name). The role it was supposed to play is quite different from what it has gone into use as, but that's also indicative of the time.

What's with the shape? - The P90 is still quite distinctive, even by 2019 standards, because of its shape. This isn't just to get some sci-fi look for sales, it's a calculated design to get the most out of the design and meet the initial requirements placed on it. The Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) was a weapon classification concept intended to give noncombat personnel (ie; vehicle crews, mechanics, clerical staff) a weapon that was not as cumbersome as a service rifle (since remember, this was the late 80s so you're looking at full size M16A2s, G3A3s, L1A1 SLRs, and so on...) which would interfere with their work, but with more punch and effect than a sidearm. And so, it had to be compact and ergonomic, something more intuitive to use for someone not in a frontline combat role who might be attacked behind the lines. But FN went further - incorporating an easier integrated reflex sight, as well as a high capacity magazine that did not add to the weapon's weight or make it unwieldy to load. The ejection port, interestingly, is mounted to eject spent casings downward, not to the left or right as is the norm.

You said something about a new bullet? - The 5.7x28mm round that the P90 is chambered in was intended to fit as a halfway between a pistol round, namely 9x19mm, and an assault rifle round, 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm. The shape of the bullet is more in line with the rifle round, being tapered into a point for superior armor penetration, while keeping the length short, which in turns mean less powder load, and that means lower recoil. Overall, the 5.7mm round met the NATO requirement, but this was disputed and caused H&K of Germany to create their own rival, the 4.6x30mm round and the MP7. But that's a subject for another chat.

And so, we come to the weapon that entered the show in Season 4, Episode 8 and has remained a staple of the Stargate series ever since. It more or less replaced the MP5s that were being used by the main characters, although the cost of blanks did start to cause some changes, such as introducing new weapons, like the G36, MP7, the "Carter Special", and so on.

The base model is the main one in use, although there are other variants.

P90 TR (Triple Rail) - This variant replaces the integrated red-dot crosshair sight with a flat-top Picatinny rail mount, plus two smaller ones on either side of the sides next to it at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions for mounting accessories like laser aiming devices or flashlights. The top mount is intended to mount different optics, though the short length does tend to keep this to smaller ones.

P90 USG (United States Government) - This has a different optic mounted in place of the original, which can be removed and replaced on a Picatinny rail under the sight, and still has the side mounted rails for supplemental add-ons.

To date, the P90 is in use with over 40 users, though contrary to the show, it was never adopted by the US Military in any way. Numerous American law enforcement units adopted it, as did the United States Secret Service, but not the military. In fact, US SOCOM chose to adopt the MP7 instead. However, the main users of the P90 are either Special Forces units, police tactical units or even bodyguard units. It was first seen in Desert Storm in the hands of Belgian Special Forces, and has been largely successful in use around the world.

And so, the P90 is perhaps a great all-round weapon to be used by personnel on an off-world team that don't need to take something more specialized. It has superb ergonomics for ambidextrous use, superior magazine capacity (50 over the usual 30), and is not bulky or otherwise unwieldy. Add to this the superior penetration over normal SMGs, and it's not hard to see why the P90 is not just iconic but also practical for off-world use.
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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2019, 02:13:17 PM »

Cipher's Gun Chat - A Living Armory

So I'd like to get into a broader subject this time. The Standardization on Weapons Thread isn't a fixed document, it's going to change and evolve as the times do. I have plans on this, and I think that the best way to open with that is with the main poster child for this in mind - the Beretta M9.



What Is It? - The M9 is the US Military designation for the Beretta 92FS. The 92 is made by Italian firearms company Beretta, who have considerable experience with small arms dating even before the First World War. It was selected to replace the M1911A1 in the late 1980s, a decision that was contentious and heavily disputed for a litany of reasons, but done to ease logistical issues with the rest of NATO, as they were standardizing to 9x19mm (and the few left using .45 ACP were using castoff and hand-me-down equipment from the US anyways...), as well as to address the fact that there were a large number of worn M1911A1s. The Beretta won out against the SIG Sauer P226, largely for cost reasons.

It is a 9x19mm semi-automatic double-action pistol, feeding from 15 round magazines. In 2006, the M9A1 was released, which includes a single point rail mount under the barrel for the mounting of tactical flashlights or laser aiming devices. It also incorporated some additional changes as requested by the United States military, from experiences gained in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So...what's the problem? - First of all, we're going to throw out the caliber argument. That's highly subjective and usually fielded by armchair firearms experts who just see bigger is better. So, let's get to the actual issues.

Back when the M9 was being adopted in 1987, there were recorded issues of the slide separating from the frame and striking the shooter in the face. This warranted a modification of the design, but hardly inspired confidence. If your military issue pistol is going to fly apart in testing, how is it going to hold up in combat? The first incident was Naval Special Warfare member, which was what doomed the M9 to be refused by the SEALs, who would instead go on to adopt the SIG Sauer P226. The issue was fixed but still caused problems, and the actual cause was due to the ammunition being over NATO standard recommendations.

Next on the list was the US military's decision to use a third party manufacturer for magazines. Not only was this company ripping off the US government, but these were causing jamming problems. In short, if your magazine is not very good, it doesn't matter how good the gun it's inside of is - the magazine is how your bullets get fed into the gun and if it's of poor quality, they're not going to get in there very well. Or at all. In 2006, the US finally changed contractors to one that would match one used by Beretta, but the inferior ones are still in circulation.

A study conducted in 2006 made a rather interesting discovery - of those surveyed (about 161 who fired their weapon in combat in Iraq or Afghanistan in a 12 month period), only 58% were satisfied with it, 49% had confidence in it as a weapon in combat situations. This was the lowest of all American service weapons.

If it's so bad, why hasn't it been replaced? - That's a political question, to be honest, because the US military has tried. But when the folks who approve your budget think what you've got is good enough, then it should come as no surprise that the M9 was finally replaced by the SIG Sauer P320, which will be known as the M17, in late 2017, after at least 3 other programs that attempted to do so before being canceled. In the meantime, smaller batches of other types were taken up but these typically went to specialized units or to Special Forces.

And where do we come into play then? - I'm going to take a bit one day to go through the main PCs in use, and evaluate who is using what. By the end of the next Season, I'd like to reduce the use of the M9 in use by PCs in total by 25%, this is both to represent the M9A1 and new magazines attempting to solve the problem but also the general dissatisifaction with the M9. This may go up the closer we get to 2017, and then when 2018 rolls in, I'm going to have the M9 phase out completely for the M17.

So, what, do I use a Zat then? - Ah, no. You can, but that's not the only option.

SIG Sauer P226 / P228 (M11) -


As mentioned before, and they're both on the list, the P226 has already been adopted by Special Operations units, such as the US Navy SEALs, and that trend has only gone upwards. The P228 is the compact cousin to the P226 and was adopted by the US Military in limited numbers. Both are 9mm handguns, and the P226 has a bit better regard of the Beretta due to a perceived better build (if more expensive) quality.



Other 9mm Pistol Ideas - To be honest, a Glock 9mm, Smith & Wesson M&P, and Springfield XD are all six one half dozen or the other - meaning they're all polymer double-action only hammerless high capacity 9mm handguns. Any one of those would be perfectly fine. Types within the Browning Hi-Power family, including the Cz 75 (and its legions of copies like the Israeli Jericho), are also acceptable alternatives. But any of these will need a request submitted to me for final approval.

Can we maybe see what else you have in mind? - Sure. I got a couple I can show now.

SCAR-L - By the end of 2011, this is going away. The US Military decided that the Mk. 16 SCAR-L is pointless with the wide range of M16s and M4s in service, they don't need another 5.56mm assault rifle. However, the upswing is that they see all the need in the world for the Mk. 17 SCAR-H, chambered in 7.62mm, and it will see the inclusion of a limited number of Mk. 20 SSRs, the dedicated sniper variants of the SCAR-H, so the SCAR-H will not be going anywhere.

USAS-12 - These will be dropped by early 2012. Contrary to the show, the USAS-12 was never adopted by the US military, and in fact none of the clients are ones in the Program. Assuming they were picked up in the mid-90s for the Abyidos mission and used ever since, they're getting worn out and spare parts are not forthcoming. It is far easier and cheaper to acquire Russian Saigas and configure them as needed until we can introduce the AA-12 in small numbers.

M24 - By next Season, conversion kits will be available to use these chambered in .300 Winchester Magnum instead of 7.62mm NATO, since the US military is moving towards .300 WinMag for long range use. When we reach 2013, the Remington MSR will be adopted to replace the M24 (since the USAF is not involved in the Army's XM2010 project) and return the L115A3s back to the UK. This is because the MSR can be chambered in 7.62mm NATO, .300 Winchester Magnum and .338 Lapua Magnum, covering all the calibers for a dedicated sniper rifle off the shelf.

G36 Series - By the next Season, this type is going to see a decline in use. This is because the German Military discovered some deficiencies in the type when exposed to hot temperatures and used in sustained fire engagements. By 2015, the IOA is going to put its foot down on having too many 5.56 rifles in use, and alongside the German issues, require it to be drawn down in service which will be completed by 2018. Any further use by that point will require a submitted request.

If anyone has any questions or concerns, please, float them my way.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 08:00:02 AM by Mim »
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Khnum

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2019, 07:12:36 AM »

I was wondering if as far as the goa'uld is concerned, could we implement new types of auction weapons taken from the Stargate worlds?
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Altzek

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 08:21:31 AM »

Was SG:W supposed to introduce new weapons?

Honestly I'd just copy Tau'ri weapons.
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Mim

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 09:36:58 AM »

 This is one area where it can get wrinkly, for as we have discussed earlier with the overseas forces theoretically serving with Stargate Command, side arms tend to become run with what you were issued with. In my case for example the standard service side arm is the Browning Hi-Power with SF's using the H&K USP. So can we go with that?

 
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Cipherhornet18

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2019, 10:01:33 AM »

I was wondering if as far as the goa'uld is concerned, could we implement new types of auction weapons taken from the Stargate worlds?

Was SG:W supposed to introduce new weapons?

Honestly I'd just copy Tau'ri weapons.

I'm not sure if this is another series or if you're referring to the weapons other races had on hand.

If it's the latter, my general rule of thumb was that other humans may have come up with something similar to what the prop was, but it wasn't what the prop was. For example - if they used an AKM in an episode, that may have been intended to stand in for something like an AKM, but expediency meant that they were not going to fabricate something just for one episode. It's possible that the Goa'uld would have probably seized these weapons if they conquered any planets at that kind of technological level, but aside from maybe infiltration purposes or wanting suppressed weapons, it's more logical to me that they would've considered some sort of more practical evolution to the Zat and Staff Weapon, less flashy and more practical. But, again, as Altzek said, you could just copy Tau'ri weapons that would have been seized from any successful engagements too.

This is one area where it can get wrinkly, for as we have discussed earlier with the overseas forces theoretically serving with Stargate Command, side arms tend to become run with what you were issued with. In my case for example the standard service side arm is the Browning Hi-Power with SF's using the H&K USP. So can we go with that?

Anything not on the list will require a request to be filed to be used. There isn't as huge of an issue because most countries don't even issue sidearms to non-Security and non-Special Forces enlisted personnel, and making the switch with a sidearm isn't that hard since they all more or less operate the same way. Since we already consider that everyone gets some sort of basic off-world training when they join the Program, that would include weapons familiarization with the more common types of weapons used, which would be the M9 and P90. So the Sidearm list will stand as it is and evolve as planned, and anyone who wants to swap to an issued sidearm from their character's home country will likely get the request approved, as will those going with a more commercially available sidearm (so long as it is using a round in military service with the United States at the very least, anything not chambered in such a round will undergo further evaluation before approval).
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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2019, 11:00:11 AM »

Stargate Worlds was supposed to be a Stargate-themed MMORPG but it was never released. It contained some interesting bits, like some actual informations about the Furlings.

As for Goa'uld weapons, personally I find the staff to be unredeemable. Mediocre range, low firing rate, abysmal accuracy... And I see no way to improve it in any way.
Some AK knockoffs alone would do miracles to the effectiveness of a Jaffa team, though vanity dictates that the design be altered to make way for some changes that would allow the snakes to claim "This was our idea".
Maybe switching from ballistic ammo to energy discharges similar to the admittedly quite practical Zat.
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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2019, 12:32:46 PM »

 It's a non issue for me in any case, I just had to ask. Since most of my characters will pick up the M9.

 @Altzek

 
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Cipherhornet18

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2019, 01:22:06 PM »

..except that you may be among those I'll have to ask to switch from the M9 by the end of next season, too. As I said, I need to do a proper census at some point.

Altzek, if you guys want to work on that and submit a proposal to me, that'll work. No rush on it, either, just whenever you guys want to hash this out.
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Khnum

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2019, 06:23:28 AM »

my idea was to use radiation weapons, and energy like zat's, but first I need to know the limitations :D
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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2019, 06:36:25 AM »

Radioactive weapons sound great for Fallout or Borderlands, but in the words of "Freeman's Mind" - "Radiation is the gift that keeps on giving", it'd be horribly impractical in the long term and I can't in good faith sign off on it without also saying it'd be actively killing the user.
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Altzek

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2019, 07:01:10 AM »


 @Altzek

 

Placing a scope, an exposed trigger and a stock on a staff weapon is not entirely what I had in mind, but it's certainly in itself an immense improvement over the regular one, if only because of the implicit increase in accuracy.
Still, the issues of low firing rates and extremely mediocre range remain.

Assault rifles work because they're automatic or semi-automatic weapons (depending on the firing mode) and have a relatively high firing range in the low hundreds of kilometers.
We saw how low is the range of the plasma (?) blasts from a staff weapon, and the rate of fire is not good either, it's on the level of any shotgun.
Relative to a purely military and offensive use, the staff weapon is just a terribly-conceived weapon, you can really, really easily tell it's meant more for show than for actually military use.

Even when it comes to aviation Goa'uld stuff is horribly ill-conceived, Death Gliders have large profiles, unprecise staff weapons (and just them, no missiles), no targeting systems and their superior speed and altitude are nullified in any engagement against atmospheric aircrafts like F-15s (good stuff) and even MiG-29s (mediocre stuff), hence my attempt to come up with a new Goa'uld fighter.

Superficial adaptation of a staff weapon is not going to help, I really, really need to come up with what amounts to a true Goa'uld assault rifle equivalent to any G36, M16 or M4 or AK or any of its variants, and if necessary I'll even need to switch to ballistic ammo.

What we really need is a complete overhaul of military doctrine.
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Cipherhornet18

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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2019, 08:31:53 AM »

Yeah, you are literally not bound to use that thing at all.

Feel free to work out your ideas and I'll help you as you need.
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Re: Weapon & Equipment Q&A Thread
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 12:52:31 PM »

Okay, double posting, but it's my thread so sue me.

I want to plan out the next couple of Gun Chats, because remember that these are also intended to educate the rest of the board who are not as up to speed on their firearms.

I for sure want to cover the subject of Optics & Attachments, since that's probably a hazy subject, but I also intend to cover specific weapons again. That said, are there any subjects that you feel would best help the rest of the community? Let me know.
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